G Rap Vs Kane / RapPages interview
Wednesday January 03rd 2007,
Filed under: Features,G Rap Week,Interviews,Magazine Vaults,Steady Bootleggin'
Written by:

Several weeks after the start of “G Rap Week” (which should really be “Month” but who’s counting) I’ve been able to dig up what I still consider to be the definitive Kool G Rap interview, thanks to Cheo H. Coker, B+ and RapPages. Pretty much everything you’d want to know about the early years is covered here, as well as the precise sequence of “competitive” joints where G and Big Daddy Kane tussled for the spot of top dog at the House that Marley built. Based on the poll from the last G Rap post, 52% of you think that Kane might’ve been a little shark-like in terms of imitating G‘s style from the radio session they did over the “Raw” beat. 16% declared BDK a straight-up biter, while 32% of Big Daddy loyalists refused to hear any talk of a rip-off.

But the real question is – based on the songs G Rap mentions in the interview, who was the supreme lyricists of the J-U Ice?




Big Daddy Kane & Kool G Rap - Raw (Extended Alternate Version)


Big Daddy Kane - Raw (Original Version)


Kool G Rap & DJ Polo - Men At Work


Big Daddy Kane - Set It Off


Kool G Rap & DJ Polo - Poison


Big Daddy Kane - Wrath of Kane

[Poll=15]

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187 Comments so far
Leave a comment

maybe you could do a g rap year?
based on the trax- i would say kane.
cause of raw and the wrath.
add something like rikers island or
butcher shop- i would say g rap.
but for real you cant compare the gods.
it would be blasphemic. nah.
dem both too heavy.

Comment by swordfish 01.03.07 @

MARLEY’S THE KING.PERIOD.
SHAN NEED RESPECT. WHO ELSE OUT JU-ICE APPART
FROM SHANTE HELD IT DOWN AGAINST BOOGIE DOWN PROD
SHAN, YOU ALL KNOW THIS,HAD EM FOR A MOMENT WITH
THE BRIDGE AND KILL THAT NOISE. DIDNT HEAR NOTHIN
COMMIN FROM KANE OR KOOL G AT THAT TIME.
SHAN THE PRINCE. MARLEY’S THE KING OF THE JUICE.

KANE 10 G RAP 9. Cos of “RAW”, Kane just got the
edge over Kool G..was SUCH AN INCREDIBLE JAM.

Comment by Sterling 01.03.07 @

Thank you for doing this… this music is the shit. Looks like it’ll be close :)

Comment by Boris-- 01.03.07 @

Based on these tracks I’d say BDK. But based on their debut albums I’d say Kool G Rap.

Comment by Lotuz 01.03.07 @

Answer this question, is the whole “creature, feature, rapture, reacher” technique, any different from when Kane goes “I appear right here, and scare and dare, a mere musketeer
That would dare to compare, I do declare” in that same session where G. Rap claims Kane took the style??

Comment by Kevin 01.03.07 @

BOTH RAPPERS BARS COULDVE DERIVED FROM THE SAME
VERSE IMO.Lol. DIDNT THEY EVER WRITE VERSES WITH
EACH OTHER? POSSIBLY THEN WOULD BE BOUNCING IDEAS
AND FLOWS OFF EACH OTHER? DUNNO.

Comment by Sterling 01.03.07 @

I’m supposed to be able to read that print?Wheres the unkut magnifier?

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.03.07 @

Man!! That’s that shit. I’ve always been more of a G Rap fan so my biases lean that way. But damn, can’t front on King Asiatic Nobody’s Equal!! They both repped.

Dee El Sends
P.E.A.C.E.

Comment by Dee El 01.03.07 @

True Sterling, another thing that could’ve happened was, before recording the track, G. Rap could’ve spat some bars to Kane, then Kane could’ve rewrote his verse for the recording to which would then include bars using that technique I indicated…or there just could’ve been a million and one other stories and explanations….But I’m sure we can agree that Kane was using that technique in that same session over that Raw beat

Comment by Kevin 01.03.07 @

I’m gonna have to go with G Rap. His lyrics painted a better picture, they also seemed to be more indepth than Kane’s especially in how he would stretch an idea from line to line. But Kane had a more polished, on point flow and you could understand everything he said unlike G Rap. Fuck it, they’re both dope and I’m glad we’re still talkin about em in 2007. Thanks for uploading that interview, shit was ill.

Comment by Kin Corn Karn 01.03.07 @

With all due respect, I don’t give a fuck!

I think Kane was the better overall entertainer (unfortunately he did end up going too far with it!) and he still managed to hold himself down lovely as a lysicist.

At the same time, I’ve never heard an MC better than G-Rap; I’m not saying he’s the best, but I’ve never heard anyone who I could say was clearly better. G-Rap is as good as ANYBODY.

Did Kane bite his style? In my opinion… FUCK YEAH! But SO WHAT?! I think Kane did it because Kane can do that, in fact, Kane could do pretty much anything any other MC could do and I think throughout his career he proved it. He always had more range than not only G-Rap, but virtually anyone in his class (possible exception of KRS One).

Comment by Ausar 01.03.07 @

So Ausar just to make sure I’m following your train of thought right, if Kane can get a pass for biting G. Rap’s style, can others get a pass too?? especially the biters of today

Comment by Kevin 01.03.07 @

I don’t really believe the whole thing about Marley not producing all the Juice Crew beats. There’s a big difference between G Rap saying, “Yo, I want a track with Funky Drummer in it” and actually putting it all together. The stuff he did with Shan and Shante sounded different because it was from a totally different era.

Comment by bedouin 01.04.07 @

“There’s a big difference between G Rap saying, “Yo, I want a track with Funky Drummer in it” and actually putting it all together.”

Good point. If G didn’t even touch the sampler then the most he deserved was a co-production credit.

Comment by Robbie 01.04.07 @

This drop is why Al Gore created the internets. Straight up clash of the titans. I need to get a website so I can do drops like these.

Comment by Dallas 01.04.07 @

I remember hearing this crazy rumor that it was Eric B that ran Kool G Rap outta NYC, and that’s why he moved to Arizona, and also why he hooked up with Sir Jinx for the 3rd album. It wasn’t safe for him to work with anyone from NYC. On The Run was meant to be semi-auto biographcial!

Another hot joint feat. Kane and G Rap was 3 To The Dome, which also feat. Chino XL (from This Or That by Sway & Tech). I think all of them blazed that joint, but Chino was on esp. good form on that performance. I know Chino worships G Rap, and apparently fished G Rap’s lyrics out of the trash after the vocals had been laid down. Chino also had a line on another track from his I Told You So album where he says “Shitting on all you rappers like Kool G Rap shit shitted on all those cats from the first Symphony” so I guess we know he stands on the G Rap/Kane debate.

Comment by Brock 01.04.07 @

“I don’t really believe the whole thing about Marley not producing all the Juice Crew beats.”

I agree. I think some of the 88, 89 Juice Crew records have a similiar sound.

Comment by turtle 01.04.07 @

You can see the natural progresion fromt he Brige to Make the music and Biz id oging off…then to joints like talk like sex. As Turtle said, its the same sound, I’d bet my Juice Crew 12s collection that thats the case!

Comment by Snafu 01.04.07 @

This is dope, thanks Robbie. Though I might be more amused by that Poppa LQ ad. Wow.

Comment by Sean 01.04.07 @

G-Rap and Big daddy Kane are both wack.The juice crew is not the best crew of all time. KRS can’t rap and neither can Rakim. Thats old school. Where’s the DIPSET post.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.04.07 @

The Poppa LQ ad is classic.

Comment by Robbie 01.05.07 @

Kevin,

“if Kane can get a pass for biting G. Rap’s style, can others get a pass too?? especially the biters of today”

My point is that Kane was a ture MC and lyricist with almost unlimited range so he could bite a style, play with it, and move on any time he felt like it; which is exactly what he did. It’s not like he based his whole career on biting G-Rap.

A good comparison would be Biggie when he took the Bone Thugs style on Notorious Thugs, he played with it, showed he could do it, then he moved on.

Another example is Nas when he did the Spellbound style on the God’s Son album. He bit the style, played with it, showed he could do it, and moved on.

I don’t see anything wrong with these cases because these are competent lyricists who don’t need to bite. That’s very different from some of these cats nowadays who posess ZERO originality and view biting as a way to get on.

I hope that clarifies it.

You gitta look at Kane’s whole carreer, not just his songs, but the stuff he wrote for Biz and Shante; it all sounds different and is catered to each MC. However, listen to the verse that G-Rap wrote for Shante, it sounds like a G-Rap verse. Kane was a very special talent.

Comment by Ausar 01.05.07 @

@ Snafu. Marley didn’t produce the Talk Like Sex track. As I remember, Marley had nothing to do with the Wanted: Dead or Alive album. He was only credited with production from the first album. Talk Like Sex is credited as being soley produced by Kool G Rap. Eric B and Large Professor were credited for producing most of the other cuts on the album.

Comment by Brock 01.05.07 @

Question: @ the end of Poison, G Rap and Polo go into all that trash talk about “They’re gonna bite this like they bit ‘It’s A Demo’ … and “You know who we’re talking about, you big, fat rap sap sucker, blah, blah blah”. Was he talking about Kane? Or someone else? Not knowing the answer to this question has bugged me for years. Any theories?

Comment by Brock 01.05.07 @

Brock- DITO!. A;though, you could hardly call
Kane fat, dude was skinny mah-fo back in the day.
Problem is we DONT know who they are about..
just aint obvious. I kinda dont wanna know. Leave
it as another one of rap’s unknown subliminals is
fine by me.

Though, “they gonna bite this like they bit its a
demo..etc” and the BIG(Kane?)fat,sap-sucker could
suggest things werent so ‘Chilled’ amongst
JU-ICE members in 87. Or, maybe Kool G Rap just
didnt like fat boy of the crew Biz Markie.
*shrugs*

Comment by Sterling 01.05.07 @

yo, i own this copy of rap pages, great moment in hip-hop publishing. this site are for puer hip-hop fans, i don’t care about any fucking post on dipset, until they start putting out pure hip-hop albums. The last dipset related album I purchased, was ‘S.D.E.’ Mercilesz, fall back.

Comment by nickleback 01.05.07 @

Nickelback thanx for taking me seriously although no one else did. I was just waiting for someone to. U made my friday.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.05.07 @

I would have voted for Masta Ace if I could have…
Peace,
Ed

Comment by Ed Catto 01.05.07 @

Ausar, I know what you mean, there’s a difference jacking, copying or clowning a style, as opposed to being influenced by a style…I mean with Kane’s can, he just took a style and added his own flava to it, especially as he used his own words…so you do hear a slight distinction G. Rap was more verbally agressive but Kane was more verbally slick & flamboyant with the way the words were put together….kinda like when that fast rap style dominated the rap game in the early 90′s, everybody did it including Common & KRS, BUT once you closely listen not everybody sounded the same…I will say this, early LL Cool J definately sounded very similar to my friend T La Rock from flow to style of lyricism

Comment by Kevin 01.05.07 @

Dope post, as always.

By the way, I recently start a new blog that totally bite your Magazine Vault section !

http://pressrewind.wordpress.com/

I also have an old G. Rap interview on it.

Comment by SLurg 01.05.07 @

Marley Marl produced all of them. Hell, most of ‘em have those Bobby Byrd drums on it.

Comment by Cinister Cee 01.05.07 @

Kevin,

I agree.

“It’s Yours” = “I Need A Beat”; different drums but the same song structure.

Plus T La Rock had everybody rhymin’ like they just bought a dictionary.

Comment by Ausar 01.06.07 @

“Nickelback thanx for taking me seriously although no one else did. I was just waiting for someone to. U made my friday.”
-Gimp

^^Who is this anonamous Gimp.

Comment by mingkilla 01.06.07 @

All I know is that this site makes me very, very happy.
I just played Set It Off like 7 times OMG that tune so rules.

Comment by Mobster1 01.06.07 @

Lets try this again. My favorite rappers are Bloodhound Gang, Jesse James, Justin Warfield, and Ali Dee. When am I going to see a post on them instead of these fake dudes that no one ever heard of that everyone keeps making such a fuss over? I mean the Juice Crew what the hell is that?None of them could touch Everlast, He’s got the knack.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.06.07 @

“I dont believe in Holidays
I don’t go on dates
I aint wit the movies or puttin on a pair of skates”- (anonymous mc lets see if u guys can name him/her)

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.06.07 @

By the way the reason y G-Rap had a falling out with Marley is the same reason why Biz had a falling out with Marley. They feel he took credit for beats that they were behind. Perfect example K-Def, LotuG, now check the production credits.lol need i say more. If u don’t think K-Def did those beats and u think Marley did then ok.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.06.07 @

you’d have to say g rap is the most consistant of juice crew

Comment by c.s 01.06.07 @

c.s is right, but somehow that doesn’t carry over to his own projects.Stick to ur gunz g-rap:classic
Murder Muzik g-rap:classic, but his records do not sound like that for some reason. I think it’s the production.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.06.07 @

Production meaning Kool genius of rap has never had the best beats.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.06.07 @

I voted G Rap! But, I think he started to get a little one-dimensional when his third album dropped … after which, he kinda fell off in my eyes. I’ve liked the odd guest appearence (such as his contributions to the Sway & Tech album, and the Saigon and Chino XL cuts) but I couldn’t bring myself to part money for any of the albums that came out after Live and Let Die. And, most of Live and Let Die was weak too. I also notice that G Rap seems to rhyme in the same kind of cadence these days, whereas back in the 1987-1991 error he varied things up a little.

That said, when Kane and G Rap were at the top of their game, I think the only other lyricists capable of testing them where that hardcore lyrical shiz was concerned were Kool Keith and Rakim.

The most consistent of these guys has def. been Rakim … ! In fact, I’d say he was the most consistent emcee of all time.

Comment by Brock 01.07.07 @

Kool Keith? lol Maybe in his own mind he had thoughtful in depth lyrics.I love Keith I love Ced but they aren’t lyrical. they say weird shit thats what they do. but lyrical im not so sure. And Brock heres someone to consider as most consistent of all time REDMAN dropped in 1990 and still one of the most feared rappers on earth.never made one completely wack album unless u wanna throw malpractice in there cuz i’ll give u that but RED’s albums have all been better than Rakims since 1992. What the album is better than technique.Robbie do u have the Big daddy kane birthday freestyle from Redman and Master Ace and all of that.If you could post that freestyle that would be a treat.thanks.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.07.07 @

1 more thing. Rakim has put out the least amounnt of music among all the aforementioned mc’s.albums and guest appearances on other peoples projects included.therefore Rakim would be the least consistent rapper of al time.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.07.07 @

you jokin right when you claim Redman what the is
better than Dont sweat the technique? I give Red
most respect for his contribution en all..
but daamn, he cant touch that album at all.
Ok,Redman had cpl hot singles on his 1st album
i mean how to roll, blow your mind was like imo
the hot dbl aside single. I be diggin Red great
energy, punchlines no ques? As an album Technique
imo is better;dope songs lyrics prod(????).
For example casualties of war, whats goin on,
relax with pep..ahrgh! could go on. Even got
know the ledge on it!!. Cmon..pull up a chair
and sit down.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

MERCILESZ, come on when Kool Keith did those bragging and boasting lyrics as well as battle rhymes, he had ill fucking lines that made you say to yourself “DAMN HOW DID HE THINK OF THST”..I know what you mean by the weird shit though, cos there are lyrics that I’m still trying to figure out

Comment by Kevin 01.08.07 @

Yeah, funny we still kickin ol kool keith lines
today..thats how crazy they where in science/rap
sense..who was kickin it like kool keith when you
heard ego trippin?..definately a unique MC who
probably has had an influence on more emcees
in hip hop than we would imagine. Ahead of his
time.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

Notice almost all these samples are James Brown!
JB forever…the king of all modern music.

Comment by Paul 01.08.07 @

But mingkilla, admit it though some of the stuff Ultramagnetic MC’s would say made no sense…

Comment by Kevin 01.08.07 @

Surprisingly you just named all the best songs off of technique.Know the ledge is Juice soundtrack so you really can’t list that one and Whats on your mind(probably the best lyrics on the ablbum) is House Party so thats not really on that record either but Ill give u whats goin on cuz I used to love that beat. I won’t list hardcore off of epmd but even with that said what the album has incredible beats on it with way more interesting production than technique, I think pete rock and styles p just remade something off that album.Sermon was a monster. now on to Ultra. Ultra is dope they are one of my favorite groups, but they aren’t lyrical. Just because you choose to use bigger words than other people doesn’t mean you got lyrics shoot it doesn’t even mean you know what the words mean. It just means you choose to say big words. Ego Tripping is dope,Bait is dope but look what happens when they choose not to use big words.one two one two: i rest my case. poppa large:how many things is this guy gonna do with the funk?

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

*bumps blunt ash*

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

P- FUNK is bent homeboy, sends me to sleep!!.
Sermon shoulda left that shit alone after strictly
business.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

Some of what Ultra said made no sense? true.
that was an element of odd ball wizardry imo.
Genius shit 85-86 stylin more than their contemp-
ories in terms of rap and swagger. Keiths and
Ced’s voices where insane da fuck kinda space
dust they where smokin. Does it matter that some
shit you couldnt make head or tail of? Its partly
what defines Ultra from the git go.
Made up scientifical, and complex for the time,
but no more than b boy nursery rhyming.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

not for nothing, but Erick Sermon is the most sampled producer in hip hop beatwise and lyricwise.He has had more stuff copied from him than any other producer in the biz.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

Ultra is great like I said. but they don’t have lyrics. In fact in an interview Kool Keith said RAW by Kane was his favorite song of all time because of Kane’s cadence.He could rap fast and still be witty. Keith said it himself that he couldn’t do what Kane did on that record.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

@ Mercilesz! I’m feeling your comments about Ultra, maybe they weren’t as lyrical as G Rap, Kane and Ra … ! And, yes Kool Keith is def. on some oddball shit these days. However, that Critical Beatdown album contained some heavy lines… and I thought the disses on that album to Slick Rick, P.E., Ra and Kool Mo Dee were very well done. But, when Ra responded to Ultra on No Competition, I think he basically made the same point you made above.

“I’m the creator. The Alpha, bet! Let’s communicate. When I translate. I set the record straight. No dicitionaries necessary to use. Big words do nothing but confuse and lose”

I think the big words and the abstraction contained in Ultra material def. put off a lot of people. But, me, I loved it … ! And they def. broke a lot of ground as artists (in terms of rhyme schemes, production, vocabulary).

As for the Redman comment … as my good friend Block would say, Ra could fart into a mic and still sound better than any Redman record I’d care to listen to. Redman’s okay, but he doesn’t touch the Ra!

Comment by brock 01.08.07 @

yeah so what bruh? lyrics wot? o course kane was
like the end level boss if you like. Rappers ack-
nowledge kane all the time. But that doesnt take
away the fact that Ultra were in a class of their
own. Id like to see kane humbled at the mear
mention of the phrase “ego trippin” same way.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

Ego Trippin was a diss to Run DmC

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

^^@mercilesz

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

Well I guess im the only ReD fan on here, but that dude has had a longer career with better lyrics than anybody out now.1990 til 2006 is a long time. the only other rapper who lasted that long was KRS.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

wasnt it a diss to ll cool j too probably amongst
others.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

actually if u listen to the first words simple back and forth
same old rythym
baby could pick up and join right with em.
thats talking about peter piper directly.
“nursey terms at least not poetic.”

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

…scarface, ice cube, ll cool j still turf jawns
commendible or not.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

what you the same person who reckons JKool Keith
hasnt got lyrics!?..pass the pipe.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

I don’t think scarface or cube were out yet.Ego trip dropped in 86.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

The real reason y Ultra was ahead of its time was the beats.They along with Marley were the first to sample drums from records and not use drum kits. When those two groups came out, Juice crew and Ultra, they single handedly changed the sound of rap. After them it was James brown or nothing.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

sorry i was refering to what you said about Redman
being consistent or whatever since 1990. I know 86
was when ego..came out, i was 13. Scarface been out
since what 88? maybe b4 as part of another local
crew im not best up on face but he is my exmple
of consistent artists.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

oh i see what u are saying now.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

just saw kool keith rockin gold fronts stylin in
the Bridge is over video on youtube..fuc’n ill.

Comment by mingkilla 01.08.07 @

@ Mercilesz: Yeah! Ego Trippin’ was def. about Peter Piper hence the opening the line of the song: “Peter Piper. To hell with childish rhymes.”

I wonder if Rush Management wronged Ultra in some shape or form as I notice that most of the artists that Ultra shoot barbs at on Critical Beatdown were “Rollin’ with Rush”. I don’t think Kool Moe Dee was, but I know they were pissed at Kool Moe Dee for scoring them so poorly on those charts on the back of his ‘How Ya Like Now’ album which is why he got dissed on the Funky Remix.

As for Red having a longer career than Ra … Ra is on the verge of dropping his 7th album entitled The 7th Seal next year … so I feel it’s a little premature to say his career is over, when he’s still releasing product and is still signed.

Comment by Brock 01.08.07 @

I have to agree with Merc, Redman is dope and has put out a lot of material. His first three albums where great and he always has great guest spots on other peoples shit. Unfortunately for us fans, Rakim came out in an era when artist were not featured on other albums. Imagine a Kane and Rakim cut when they were in their primes.

Comment by turtle 01.08.07 @

@ Turtle: I think a Kane/Ra collabo would’ve been great BUT how on earth did a Kool G Rap and Rakim collabo never happen. Isn’t G Rap’s feat on the back of one of those Eric B and Rakim albums, and we all know G Rap and Eric B were working together on the Wanted: Dead or Alive project.

Comment by brock 01.08.07 @

brock, Great Point

Comment by turtle 01.08.07 @

Kane and ra were supposed to do a joint that never happened.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.08.07 @

“which is why he got dissed on the Funky Remix.”

What lines referred to him, exactly?

Comment by Rah-Love 01.09.07 @

Rah-Love, Ultra even dissed Moe Dee in the video to ‘Travelling At The Speed Of Thought’, just peep the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIc_rVKGA1g

Comment by Kevin 01.09.07 @

MERCILESZ, are you seriously telling me when Kool Keith did those bragging and boasting lyrics as well as battle rhymes, there weren’t lines you understood that still left you thinking “DAMN HOW DID HE THINK OF THAT”??? I mean I always loved this line on Kool Keith Housing Things:

“I rhyme bright, and you’re in the dark
with shadows, hallucinating battles”

Comment by Kevin 01.09.07 @

I figured he was a wierd dude.And then I found out he had spent time in bellevue.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.09.07 @

Wow. traveling at the speed of thought.just count how many times keith says brain.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.09.07 @

@ Rah Love. He refers to Kool Moe Dee’s chart twice. Once on the Funky Remix and then again on the track Bust The Facts.

The lines from Funky (Remix) are:

He’s not a pro-fessionally,
up to par, with myself
No comp’, I like to battle myself
by myself, compete again myself
Score myself, on HIS WEAK ASS CHARTS
HOW CAN A FOOL SAY HE”S ON THE TOP?
Eight million rappers, my rhymes stop
with lyric bombs, the wack ones drop
like snowflakes, they turn to cornflakes
My voice shakes, causin earthquakes in Michigan

On Bust The Facts:

Melle Mel had the best rhymes, rankin with Caz
Kool Moe tried to get down, but I made him sit down
with that metaphor quickness, you bite and you bit this
Stop and go turn, see the flame and go burn
to ashes to ashes, dust to dust
Seven years later toy you still crusty crust
Your old rhymes are rust, very dirty and dusty
And under your arms you’re kickin power and musty
Get out of my way, and let the rhythm path roll
Let me run up the charts, freak a rhyme turn gold
while you’re listenin, I throw a buzz in your ear
Bust the facts!

Comment by brock 01.10.07 @

He had a couple of lines about Moe Dee on Plucking Cards, but he really went at Kane on that joint:

Twinkle twinkle twinkle little star
Behind those glasses I know who you are
You Racer X, here’s brother speed
You dissin James? He’s chicken feed
He can’t rap or clap or make a feet tap
How bout Monie and Nikki they both bullcrap
I see light in my lamp, but not on the mic
How could I diss myself in front of Dolemite
You wanna preach and teach and be a rebel
Then underline disguise and be the devil
Call yourself God, can you make it rain
Can you tell me how or what I’m thinkin in my brain
I’m not the bighead kid who wanna show off
I just pick up the mic and then I blow off
Dirt, crumbs, any type of feather
You ain’t genuine, toyin real leather
Pleather, coming out in the weather
You rap on R&B tracks and whatever
Hi Uncle Tom, go head entertain
Dance and get sweaty, and let me use my brain
I think twice about the big bow tie
You wearin one? I wanna know why

(disclaimer: copied from a lyric board so there could be typos and mistakes)

Comment by brock 01.10.07 @

Incidentally, I know Kool Keith had immense respect for Kane, but I think many of us were thinking the same thing when that those Taste of Chocolate and Prince of Darkness albums dropped.

Comment by brock 01.10.07 @

Taste of chocolate had heat. I know its not his best album but he was still rockin when that came out.He had that beat that Lil Kim fell in love with on that album.Prince Paul killed that album. Ultra didnt put out anything noteworthy when taste of chocolate dropped. but thats just my opinion. What do I know? And it sounds like he could be talking to Rakim on that record. call yourself God, bow ties, Dolemite(in the ghetto video), hmm 2 disses in one from keith.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.10.07 @

Prince of Darkness is not bad either. Come on down, brother brother (Black moon flipped the sample), and a couple of other songs.

Comment by turtle 01.10.07 @

MERCILESZ, I know he was a weird dude and all…but was that enough reason to ‘write him off’ in regards to the quality of his lyrics overall?? Because the point I’m trying to make is when he did his bragging and boasting lyrics as well as battle rhymes..his thoughts within them would arrive to a conclusion and to a point, and actually make sense…mingkilla I think you’ll feel me when I was this point right here that at times you would have to carefully & slowly listen to Kool Keith, to actually find, hear and disect the lines that actually did make sense….As for the stuff that didn’t make sense, it was just struck as comedy & humor that made me laugh my head off

Comment by Kevin 01.11.07 @

Pretty much. I thought everything they did was comedy. rip your brain off? im going with the devil in a cage? sike!!!! all that shit was funny to me. Im not writing off Kool Keith as wack I’m just saying he is not in the class of a Kane G-rap or KRS or people like that.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.11.07 @

Fine, I can asset that, but Kool Keith would spit lyrics that would make you think ‘DAMN HOW DID HE THINK OF THAT’ even when I understood them

Comment by Kevin 01.11.07 @

HENCE HE WAS LYRICAL IN HIS OWN RIGHT

Comment by Kevin 01.11.07 @

well i just dont think rhyming brain off(pause) with brain off is lyrical? do u know how many things this guy rhymed with doo-doo? Kool Keith is a comedic rapper and thats 4 real.He said funny shit every time he got the chance.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.11.07 @

Nah dog keith emersed in style..not only clever
wordplay but flow rather unique and funny with it.

Comment by mingkilla 01.11.07 @

“Call yourself God, can you make it rain
Can you tell me how or what I’m thinkin in my brain”

Did he get any flack for this line, cuz it sounds like it could be directed at anyone who was a Five Percenter.

Comment by Rah-Love 01.11.07 @

Kool Keith was on drugs; no mystery.

Comment by Ausar 01.11.07 @

@ Kevin on Kool Keith. “I know he was a weird dude and all…but was that enough reason to ‘write him off’ in regards to the quality of his lyrics overall?? Because the point I’m trying to make is when he did his bragging and boasting lyrics as well as battle rhymes..his thoughts within them would arrive to a conclusion and to a point, and actually make sense” Cosigns!

@ Mercilesz: are you talking about “Kool Keith Housing Things” coz as I remember it he rhymed “brain off” with “drain off” as in

Quickly, I’m a rip your brain off.
Throw it down so the blood can drain off …
my hands, while I wave to a fan.
I’m Kool Keith, not a Bill or Dan

In terms of rhyme schemes, Kool Keith was all about breaking rules. While most emcees were stuck on that AABB pattern of rhyming, Keith was creating rhymes that had no standard rhymeset whatsoever but still had cadences that flowed well. Funky and the Funky remix are two nice examples of this style in operation. He was a definite innovator.

Comment by brock 01.11.07 @

Kool Keith was given no mention whatsoever in Kool Mo Dee’s ‘There’s A God On The Mic’ … I smell politics, but it’s still a crime that he got no mention whatsoever, esp given the influence that Ultra had on the scene @ that time.

What I find interesting is that in Bust The Facts Keith labels Moe Dee as a biter, which is kinda strange given that Moe Dee is always described as the father of that rapid rap style, and the person responsible for moving the rap game beyond that bar-bidi-bar-bidang-bidang-diddy and call-and-response style of emceeing popularized by artists like Busy Bee.

Comment by brock 01.11.07 @

lol he said brain like 8 times.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.11.07 @

in traveling at the speed of thought.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.11.07 @

lol. he said brain 4 times. he rhymed brain with brain. he rhymed skull with skull. THATS NOT LYRICAL.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.11.07 @

I never rated that record lyrically (Travellin’)! I kinda agree it’s not very lyrical to rhyme a word with the same word twice unless you’re playing with homonyms. I remember hating ‘Fuck Compton’ for the same reason, where Tim Dog did the same kind of thing on that record with the word ‘shit’. When you add that to fact he recycled most of the lines on that track from Chorus Line, that must constitute as one of the most sloppy records ever written. I did like the Michell(ay)e lines though.

As for the Travellin’ record, a part of me wonders if when Keith did it, he was just out to break some rules again.

Comment by brock 01.11.07 @

Personally, brock & MERCILESZ, I couldn’t give a damn whether an MC rhymes the same word or not, AS LONG as the content (hence what they are talking about) within the words of they use within their verses MAKE SENSE and has a basis of meaning once following the train of thought from the words used, that’s the most important thing….unlike a verse where the rhyme schemes are soo complex and patterned out along with the connected multi-syllable words (used completely outta context) and fictional multi-syllable, with meaningless content especially once you reitterate the lyrics…and some of that kinda stuff was evident on Tim Dog’s verse ‘A Chorus Line’

Comment by Kevin 01.12.07 @

@ Kevin. Y’know! I just went and listened to Chorus Line again. I love that choon, but your comments on Tim Dog’s lines in that verse are pretty spot on. But it must be said TR, Ced and Keith tore that shit to shreds … !

Comment by brock 01.12.07 @

WHO HAS THAT VIDEO WHERE L.L, KANE, AND G. RAP WERE ON STAGE RIPPIN’ DOWN THE MIC ON EACH OTHER OFF THE IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT BREAK? THAT WAS ILL!!!

Comment by BINGRIM 01.12.07 @

HOW COME WHEN KRIS SAID I “DIDN’T HEAR OF A PEEP FROM A PLACE CALLED QUEENS”, “QUEENS KEEPS ON FAKIN’ IT”, AND “EVERYBODY’S TALKIN’ BOUT THE JUICE CREW’S…STILL TELLIN’ LIES TO ME” HOW IN THE HELL DID NOT THE INVINSIBLE KOOL G. RAP ADDRESS THIS? SOMEBODY FROM GOOD OLE N.Y EXPLAIN THAT TO THE AHKI.PEACE!

Comment by BINGRIM 01.12.07 @

You see, in regards to my comments about Tim Dog, THAT’S WHY I LOVED HIM, cos he was just so funny when does it…and I truely believe with Kool Keith, when he was doing that stuff it wasn’t intended for you to take it seriously or litterally, it was just meant to be funny…hence at least Kool Keith was comical with it. Unfortunately the same cannot be applied with the underground lyricists of today, which reminds me of what Big Daddy Kane said many years ago of how HipHop is becoming TOO CONSERVATIVE

Comment by Kevin 01.12.07 @

Ok let me get this straight. When Kool Keith says “dog dog cat my pet pet” He’s a great battle rapper but when Juelz Santana uses the same flow Dipset is wack? The thing about Keith is he tried to be funny, maybe Juelz and Cam are trying to be funny too. Who knows?

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

by the way, I was watching this documentary on great MC’s, and KRS came up and there’s something I’ve always noticed when documenting KRS’ greatness publicly, they focus on the conscious, activism, edutaining, teacha side but rarely focus on his contributions soley as an MC, I mean with other MC’s (like Jigga & Eminem) they went deep into how they flip flows/styles etc. With KRS, the dude has so many styles, flows & rhythms to his catalog it’s ridiculous, (with new one’s as we speak), plus he’s one of the 1st true pure conversational MC’s, he can hold his own when it comes to storytelling, Love’s Gonna Get Ya is one of the realest stories that still holds true to this day. Their’s more to say but, sometimes I feel his legacy get’s pigeon holed to just the teacha but not enough documentation of the MC side, and like Rakim, KRIS HAS INFLUENCED MC’S and the ****ed up part about is some of his own fans are guilty of doing that, especially as his fanbase is extremely diverse. What do you think?

P.S I’ve heard MC’s such as Common, Ice Cube (hell Ice Cube used some of KRS’ style in his NWA dayz, but I’ll get into that later on), and K-Rino even say how KRS influenced them in their approach to MCing
AND let’s not forget, KRS is one of the masters of the full usage of breath control
HOLLA

MERCILESZ, are you being hypothetical, with example or did Kool Keith really saying that??…cos like I said, I don’t care whether you rhyme the same words or not, IT DEPEND ON WHAT YOUR SAYING in your usage of them….it’s similar to when MC’s use curse words

Comment by Kevin 01.12.07 @

That is not hypothetical. I quoted that directly from one 2 one 2. One of my fave Ultra joints. that 4 horsemen album was a monster.Everyone please buy that if u dont have it. It may be hard to get cuz thats when they switched to wild pitch from mercury but i lie to u not that is a direct quote. Juelz used the same style and i said damn he must of heard 1 2 1 2. U can watch him say it on youtube. one 2 one 2 is performed live on sherry carters show. it wasn’t vido soul it was another show. i think video lp.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

him meaning keith.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

never mind scratch that they didnt use the real lyrics of that song on youtube. i just pepped it. if u have the album u know what im talkin about.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

by the way if anyone from new york nj or ct can relate to this when one 2 one 2 came out they played it one very show one nite on wnwnk. Kevin keith and the dozen played it then hank love and half pint played it then silver surfer played it. all in one saturday nite. I MISS NY RADIO. WHAT THE F HAPPENED?

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

WNWK MY BAD

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

OH AND THATS SUPPOSED TO SAY ON EVERY SHOW. BY THE WAY ROBBIE DO YOU HAVE THAT REDMAN FREESTYLE FROM BIG DADDY KANES BIRTHDAY I WAS INQUIRING ABOUT. THAT WAS A TREMENDOUS NITE IN HIP HOP. WHO DIDN’T GET ON STAGE THAT NITE? PEACE

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.12.07 @

Kevin…..i would say Amen to wot you said bout Kris and how ppl dont notice how versatile he is wif rhyme styles…..he can flip d fast style slow style, syllable style, off beat style ….dude got like 30 styles on him lol….and my opinion is with rakim kane g rap n d rest of that time…like yo they was all dope with they styles but Krs was really d only 1 who can not only rock crazy rhymes but also say something at the same time…..like if u gave ra, g rap, and kane the list of topics that kris has been on….they wouldnt b able to spit half the style they usually did……

Comment by louis b 01.12.07 @

wot im trying to say is that its easier to rock the craziest rhyme style n not say that much…..but wen u narrow it down to certain topics or something its much harder….thats y i say Krs is G.O.A.T hands down!

Comment by louis b 01.12.07 @

Forgive me, for that comment about Kris, it wasn’t meant to be for this post, my PC was fucking up sending posts in the wrong places…So dismiss it

Comment by Kevin 01.13.07 @

But louis b, good stuff…but back to the original topic…MERCILESZ, post up a sample of that verse..cos like I said, it depends on what your saying in the verse that determines whether or not such a technique is applicable…

Comment by Kevin 01.13.07 @

could someone tell me who vandy c and bill blast
is? Merc u mentioned Hank Love n Half Pint, was
that Majestic Productions?

Comment by mingkilla 01.13.07 @

i have a cpl they singles in the crate. Where they
affiliated with Ultramag?

Comment by mingkilla 01.13.07 @

I don’t know if it was majestic productions. i was 12 when 4 horsemen dropped i just remember every show that nite played one 2 one 2. Its the b-side of two brothers with checks.
Keith says “you can be dog dog, cat, my pet pet”
just peep the track its a classic.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.13.07 @

yeah, will do again, that album was ill. always liked raise it up prolly the most tho.

Comment by mingkilla 01.13.07 @

oh yeah and the saga of dandy….good concept. Ced Gee was startin to sound dusted by this album ubfortunately its one of the albums true down-sides

Comment by mingkilla 01.13.07 @

woahhh fuck dog i forgot bout ‘see the man on the street’!!!.

Comment by mingkilla 01.13.07 @

Yeah, and the Juice Crew was dope!

Comment by turtle 01.13.07 @

@ Louis. I have love for much of KRS’s material, and yes he does have a range of styles (some of which I never checked for, i.e. that dodgy reggae style) but disagree with you about Kane, Ra and G Rap not being able to drop material that was substantive esp. in Kane and Rakim’s case. That may not have been the focus of most of their material, but go check the metaphysics on cuts like Mystery (Who Is God) by Ra, or the social commentary on tracks like Casualties of War (also by Ra), or Big Daddy Kane’s verse on Burn Hollywood Burn, or even G Rap’s Erase Racism (which I don’t like) or Streets of New York (which I do like). They destroyed those tracks. I think these emcees were so high calber that if you sat them down with a pen and a pad, and made them come up with rhymes built around some of the concepts KRS effed with they would have done just as good a job as KRS if not better!!!

Comment by brock 01.13.07 @

Brock, I think was Louis is saying, yes Kane & G. Rap did substancial….but it was limited in comparison to Kris…Rakim only was closer…and regards to the metaphysics, remember equates to the art of reading between the surface (scraping the surface) overall which includes reading between the lines, it has two sides of the coin of putting this art into practuce:

* Reading between the surface to grasp multi-layed meanings even though the mult-layed meanings can be manifested from singluar trains of thought
* Reading between the surface to grasp multi-layed thinking and concepts even though that multi-layed thinking arrive a singular point/meaning or limited points/meanings (hence taking one point/concept and looking at it from multiple points of view)

Comment by Kevin 01.14.07 @

metaphysics is 2 things joined in inevitability therefore unvisersal truth. light-dark life-death physical body-soul leaving body. I love metaphysics and KRS is right they will never be taught again. Rakim and Kane and G-rap didn’t read enough to write was KRS wrote.they were too busy sweating themselves. Read “Stolen Legacy” by James and you will find that lyrics from “the blackman in effect” are basically found in the same order on the page as they are in his rhymes.He just took a little extra time to make them rhyme.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.14.07 @

Everybody please start reading non-fictional books. Books are my new records because music sucks now and nobody has anything of any value to say.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.14.07 @

2 things is too vague. metaphysics is 2 opposite things or actions joined in inevitability.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.14.07 @

damn that should say universal.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.14.07 @

@ Mercilesz: I’m not gonna say that Ra is as well-read as KRS 1 … coz I honestly don’t know … but I think that the ‘Mystery’ track def. demonstrates that Ra can hang when it comes to speaking on metaphysics! For me though the ultimate metaphysical track is ‘Interview With A Vampire feat God and Satan’ by Ras Kass!!! That sons just about any track I’ve heard that focuses on the topic of religion. ‘Nature of the Threat’ which focused on the history of Eurocentric racism was pretty awesome too.

Comment by brock 01.14.07 @

but thats in the mid nineties. KRS broke down the origin and downfall of the original African religion in you must learn in 89. put it like this. there could be no Ras Kas without KRS.

Comment by MERCILESZ 01.14.07 @

Agreed. There would be no Ras Kass without KRS One! Ras would tell you that himself. Infact, he often cites KRS, Rakim and Ice Cube as his primary sources of inspiration.

Comment by brock 01.15.07 @

Brock, you gotta admit this Tim Dog part in Chorus Line is hilarious:

Metaphor physical, rhymes are artistical lyrical mircales
difficult, to some terrifical
Hypothetically, alphabetically
Energetically, theoretically

And adds icing to the cake by saying:

I can’t believe how dope I am
Give me a pound, thank you ma’am

Comment by Kevin 01.16.07 @

science lessons aside. wheres King Sun at? i dont hear any mention of god.

Comment by mingkilla 01.16.07 @

Mercilesz,
How in the hell are you gonna say Ced and Keith aren’t lyrical? Dude they came with all that double compound connectors, example: “increase your metaphor/make it better for” Plus they took elevation science to the next level. The only catz who really rhymed with the big word technology before them was Just-Ice, Treacherous Three, and T-La Rock point blank!! Ultra was so far advanced and bold that at times they wouldn’t rhyme intentionally but the verse would still have a dope cadence and rhythm pattern. Ced’s verse on the original “Delta Force one” alone smashes most feable rhymes from 88 to 91. Check “Aint’ it good to you”, “Chorus Line”, “MC Champions”, and “Yo Black” “Ultra always fresh, never the less”!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.13.07 @

big words dont mean big ideas…..

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.13.07 @

In the words of my man Kool Keith. “Our words aren’t too big, your brains are too small” Chuuch!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.14.07 @

you like the big words….you pointed that out as a selling point right?thats why they are dope right?…..them dudes dont tak about nothing point blank and couldnt touch a krs,rakim,kane or g-rap so why waste time discussing this again when everyone and their mom knows who can really rap….ced gee vs. g-rap? kool keith vs. kane? cmon ur smart arent u mark?

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.14.07 @

You can never ever mention KRS-One and not mention Ultra!! If it weren’t for CED-GEE there would be no KRS!! Who’s house do you think dude stayed at when he was homeless? Who you think introduced Kris to Scott? Matter of fact I have a super rare free style with Ultra & BDP live in Canada with KRS, Ced, and Keith Free Styling and Moe Love and Scott Going back and fourth on the Ones and Twos. Kris is reciting all of Keith’s lyrics from “Bait” and praising Ultra!! I would never take anything from Kane or G. Rap. They are both legends and so is Ultra. It’s all subjective, but you can never front on them!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.14.07 @

not fronting on ultra as a music group i have bait on an old 98.7 tape right now along with krs’s old promos and even 808 is coming promo on tape.those songs are upwards of 21 years old and i like the music however kool keith is not a dope rapper….and ced gee? cmon….i like ultras sound but that doesnt mean i gotta give em credit for being dope rappers when they clearly weren’t.btw ced gee is responsible for alot of early bdp beats but thats not rapping…it’s cool though cuz i can’t rap either. have a good one Marc.

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.14.07 @

MERCILESZ, wait, after the convo we had earlier, are you still telling me that Kool Keith never said certain lyrics that made you think “damn how the fuck did he think of that??”

Comment by Kevin 09.14.07 @

Marc Davis, do you think you could up that rare freestyle you have

Comment by Kevin 09.14.07 @

yeah true dats wat im saying…anyone can say something nonsensical but only true writers can say something witty. ultra is a sound and a very dope one at that….they just can’t rap. the jimi hendrix experience is a sound and a dope one at that but u can’t say that jimi could sing better than solomon burke….he sold way more than solomon btw because of the sound…it’s all about sonics and ultra was one of the first groups to bring the sampled sonic aesthetic to hip hop…maybe that clears it up

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.14.07 @

oh yeah rappers never use metaphors…they use similes so u can use all the words u want but at the end of the day if they don’t make well lets just say congratulations you have now said nothing…

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.14.07 @

oh yeah rappers never use metaphors…they use similes so u can use all the words u want but at the end of the day if they don’t make sense well lets just say congratulations you have now said nothing

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.14.07 @

I saw this bumped up, so I just thought I might as well post it: a Big Daddy Kane/Kool G Rap album would be the best album ever. Doesn’t matter the period (they could’ve done it in 88, 94, or now).

Comment by dragondude_r 09.14.07 @

So MERCILESZ are you trying to tell me in Kool Keith’s battle lyrics, even the following examples below were nonsensical, unwitty, meaningless, and made no sense whatsoever;

“I rhyme bright, and you’re in the dark
with shadows, hallucinating battles”

“Foreign precinct rappers need to back up
quickly, I’ma rip your brain off
Throw it down so the blood can drain off
my hands, while I wave to a fan”

Comment by Kevin 09.14.07 @

im kool keith not bill or dan….wack….that dont hold up to any real lyrics of that time but thanks for the memories.

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.14.07 @

lolol, ok MERCILESZ, just to understand where your coming from, why were those battle lyrics I listed wack??..lol

Comment by Kevin 09.15.07 @

well this is way too old but it dont stand up to raw by kane or g-rap at all so check those lyrics out….

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.15.07 @

MERCILESZ, lol now I’m sure even you can come up with a better reason than that…

Comment by Kevin 09.15.07 @

naaa i dont think there is a better reason…nuff said

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.15.07 @

Dragondude R-I would rather see a G Rap and Rakim lp. That would be perfect for me. For the next generation Nas and AZ should’ve done an lp a long long time ago when they were at their prime. As long as the shit didn’t end up like The Firm it would’ve been classic.

My ultimate fantasy lp would’ve been Diamond, Large Pro, Pete Rock and Q-Tip doing a project together. All of them could rhyme nice and make the best beats, if it dropped sometime between 92-97 that shit would’ve reigned supreme.

All their sounds were compatible and they knew each other. I can dream, can’t I?

Comment by silent minority 09.15.07 @

Funny MERCILESZ LMAO, it’s just the way that your so bold and strong in regards to your statements, one would assume that you could at least channel that same energy to come up with reasons in regarding your statements…but if you cannot come up with a better reason than that, then so be it, HILARIOUS but so be it….ROTFLMAO

Comment by Kevin 09.17.07 @

y shud i waste time…symphony is better than chorus line and raw with kane and g-rap is better lyrically than any record ultra ever made.it’s like u r asking me the same question over and over to see how much i know about rap or maybe even recieve some hip hop education or sumthing…thats kinda funny to me…

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.17.07 @

MERCILESZ, like I clearly stated earlier, why I insisted for you to give reasons regarding your statements was simply to UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU COMING FROM not to test you…if I was repeating myself, is because your answers were still vague and giving me a sense of bewilderment, especially as I believe a person as smart and intelligent as you are is capable to give reasons which is why I stated “surely you can come up with a better reason than that”…

Comment by Kevin 09.17.07 @

Kevin,

If you check my big homie, DJ Ivory, of the Mighty P-brothers “Hear No Evil pt 2″ He plays part of the freestyle with Ultra and KRS.

Mercilesz is a true UltraMagnetic fan. He knows way too much about them!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.17.07 @

hell yeah im’a true ultra fan….what?ny what is funky?…i got poppa large 12..ease back 12..one 2 one 2 12….chorus line 12….funky 12….i just dont think they can rap.

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.17.07 @

oh yeah 4got my fave..ego t…i got that on 12 too..four horsemen on wildpitch got that as well…but they still cant rap

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.17.07 @

To throw myself into this whole thing on Ultra, I think they are the epitome of a group being underground and getting passes for that reason alone. Like Mercilesz, I like songs of theirs and whatnot, but I don’t think they are great MCs by any stretch of the imagination.

I have never understood the “genius” of Kool Keith. If another rapper (like say, Lil’ Wayne) said some shit like “pick ‘em up, eat ‘em up, pick ‘em up, picklehead, pick ‘em up picky”… none of the people who think Keith is so great would be biggin’ that shit up AT ALL. There would by explanations that could make them respect that shit, but it comes out of Keith’s mouth and it’s incredible- NAH.

Comment by DANJAMANIA 09.18.07 @

^^^sorry, what I meant to say is “there would be no explanations that could make them respect that shit, but it comes out of Keith’s mouth and it’s incredible- NAH”

And I liked “Poppa Large” a LOT and still do, but as Merc is saying- they just can’t rap, especially not on the same par as the other MC’s of that era like Kane or G Rap. I’ve seen people who are far less critically-acclaimed do far better than Ultra lyrically.

Comment by DANJAMANIA 09.18.07 @

But DANJAMANIA, I don’t even the majority of Ultra fans ever saw Kool Keith as competition against the Kane’s, G. Rap’s and Rakim’s, and I think that same majority only saw Kool Keith as the true lyricist of Ultra….And regards to other Mc’s as opposed to Kool Keith saying “pick ‘em up, eat ‘em up, pick ‘em up, picklehead, pick ‘em up picky”….that was the kinda of stuff that used to come of Tim Dog’s mouth, and people would just laugh at him and call him wack…I suppose the difference with Kool Keith, is what he said prior and how it tied in with lyrics like ““pick ‘em up, eat ‘em up, pick ‘em up, picklehead, pick ‘em up picky”….which imo even Kane would do the same type of thing….

What’s making me laugh about MERCILESZ, is how he’s writing Kool Keith off as an MC who can’t rap, I asked him to explain why and how, just to understand where he’s coming from, and his response is dismissive and vague

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

dude…that rip ur brain off rhyme u wrote was corny and reason enough….danjas poppa large quote was reason enough and if u check above u can see that most people who say keith is dope don’t even listen to keith…i mean u didnt even know the lyrics of “one 2 one 2″. you thought i was being hypothetical….how do you know you like something if u never heard it? it reminds me of young kids i talk to today and they say rakim is the greatest of all time,then i go what albums do u own? and then they say none…it’s all hype…

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.18.07 @

oh and who sed tim dog was dope?he made up mad words to be funny just like keith.the genius of ultra lies in the fact that they were silly as hell but their beats were so dope people still bought it.thats about it.

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.18.07 @

LOL MERCILESZ, unless I’m misreading this quote from you “if u check above u can see that most people who say keith is dope don’t even listen to keith…”….ok then so explain to me how you know that everybody on this blog that listed Kool Keith as being dope don’t even listen to Kool Keith, is do you know them personally or are you just making ASSumptions based on say other experiences like that Rakim one you pointed out?

“i mean u didnt even know the lyrics of “one 2 one 2″. you thought i was being hypothetical”

Was that directed to me??…If so, what’s you point?..enlighten me, please do?

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

i mean u didnt even know the lyrics of “one 2 one 2″. you thought i was being hypothetical….how do you know you like something if u never heard it?

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.18.07 @

yeah ur the one who asked if i was being hypothetical….just scroll up homie…

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.18.07 @

MERCILESZ unless I’m completely reading an entirely different blog, when did I ever mention anything about ‘one 2 one 2″??? let alone claiming that I liked it or whether you were being hypothetical….the only Ultra & Kool Keith lyrics, I ever brought up in this blog were “A Chorus Line” to make a point about Tim Dog and Kool Keith Housing Things, to make a point about Kool Keith

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

Opps my bad, now I do recall asking you that hypothetical question….but when did I ever say I liked “One 2 One 2″??

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

your question was not hypothetical. it just proves the point u never heard two brothers with checks b-side or four horsemen lp but keith is such a great mc.just do some home homework and then u mite be able to see where danjas coming from.

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.18.07 @

This is funny Mercilesz because if you ask G. Rap, Kane and Rakim, was Ultra Lyrical and they will respond and say yeah!! Ultra was the rappers rapper of the golden age of Hip Hop!! Latin Quarters, Union Square, The Roof Top, Disco Fever was there house!! What you fail to realise is not one MC was breaking rhyme scheme patterns back then like Ced and Keith, staying black and funky, and have a left field approach and still remain firmly grounded and respected in the Bronx street culture back when if you were wack niggas kicked your ass on the stage, real talk!!

The era where black drug dealers booked shows. Catz like Supreme Magnetic, Father Mason picked up groups in limos with girls and paid rappers good money. You had to be dope!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.18.07 @

“This is funny Mercilesz because if you ask G. Rap, Kane and Rakim, was Ultra Lyrical and they will respond and say yeah!!”

Marc Davis, that quote from you right there reminds me of the hilarious conversations I have with my buddy T La Rock about Kool Keith, I’ll be happy to share some of it with you if you wish

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

if u ask them? stop playing…u nerds..have them write that and cosign…only thing i ever read kool keith say was raw was his favorite song ever….nerds……ok im done wit this one yall reach too hard to prove a point…..

Comment by MERCILESZ 09.18.07 @

“oh and who said Tim dog was dope?”

If that is directed at me, I NEVER IN MY LIFE said or would ever say that Tim Dog was dope lyrically to be blunt he was wack….I mentioned Tim Dog as a prime example of an MC, who would spit a verse with overt complex and patterned rhyme schemes, along with the connected multi-syllable words (in misused context along fictional multi-syllable words, and to have meaningless context (hence chat shit), as Tim Dog did in the Chrous Line

Brock then understood what I was talking about…..and I said to Brook, which is why I loved him, because the passion and the enthusiasm in his mic presence and delivery

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

“Your question was not hypothetical. it just proves the point u never heard two brothers with checks b-side or four horsemen lp”

Or it could simply be that I had trouble remembering one small particular of a line from a track, me asking you if it was hypothetical was just my way of asking you to refresh my memory and enlighten me….

Furthermore, THERE ARE A BUNCH OF REASONS WHY certain lines may be hazy in people’s memories and here below are some of the common ones:

1) Some people are simply conditioned to remembering lyrics once they hear the actual record, especially if such a style is so complex
2) That actual line may not be the favourite part of the song, hell even the track itself may not even be their favourite
3) Simply too much released material from that particular MC to keep up with and remember, especially in someone like Kool Keith’s case where he’s made 24 albums and counting, with over 10 tracks on each album, not taking to account the number of singles and guest appearances
4) The point above in conjunction to other credible MC’s’s lyrics to memorise as well
5) Especially if such a track, in this ‘One Two One Two’ case especially is an old track, and may not have been listened to for years

I could list more reasons, but I’ll leave you with this, explain this to me, how does being unfamiliar with one small particular line from a verse, equate to not knowing or never listening to a person’s entire catalogue??

Comment by Kevin 09.18.07 @

Mercilesz is one of them clowns who pops shit about keith, but would hop all on his dick like a bitc when if he see’s him in the flesh!! I remember when I first brought keith out to Chicago for an event I had him host. I had these dudes saying how they were going to battle keith and take him out on the mic. When keith stepped up to the mic at the prop house in Chicago and start free styling off the top of the dome all those mother fuckers turned into Hellen keller and couldn’t say shit!! Not one walked up and challenged him, shit was funny!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.18.07 @

The fact about Ultra is… as Mercilesz pointed out, they had great production and they were so unconventional, it worked somewhat. Yes, Keith did do things outside of the norm at the time flow-wise, but to me that’s the same thing people will criticize a rapper for now. “He’s all flow and good production, he has no substance, etc.” are the biggest criticisms I hear about people now, but with Keith, he gets an automatic pass as a great lyricist even though a lot of his lyrics look like hot trash on paper?

Comment by DANJAMANIA 09.19.07 @

But here’s what I’m asking DANJAMANIA, why and how did they look like hot trash on paper???…because nothing Kool Keith ever said made sense??…his content was exclusive to battle rap and mc bravaddo…what reasons??…and please forgive if I sound antagonist

Comment by Kevin 09.19.07 @

Error let me rephrase…But here’s what I’m asking DANJAMANIA, why and how did they look like hot trash on paper???…because NOTHING Kool Keith ever said in his verses made any sense?? what reasons??…..and regarding the subtance point you brought up, did he lack substance because his content was exclusive to battle rap and mc bravaddo……and please forgive if I sound antagonist, but please enlighten me

Comment by Kevin 09.19.07 @

Kool Keith was on genius level for me personally. It may seem as some of his rhymes are nonsensical or simplistic but then he has many styles, not just a couple and when he was in the mood he would say some shit that was so out there no other emcee could mess with it.

IMHO he could easily have written literal, or more conventional rhymes to compare to a G Rap or Rakim but he was so out there he really didn’t care.

I wish Keith would hook up with a producer these days rather than do his basic beats. The Matthew lp was some dope shit, him taking his frustrations out on the whole industry.

Comment by silent minority 09.19.07 @

Power compacter brain distractor droppin a bomb right in your anal conector/sector, vector/the lyric inspector/x-ray vision, power perfector/lector, mector/igor!!

Nuff said!!

Comment by Marc Davis 09.22.07 @

The Defense rests.

In the court of lyricism, it was ruled that Kool Keith was a highly lyrical individual prone to momentary spells of weirdness, yet still retaining the ability to excel in complex rhyme form.

No right of appeal exists.

Comment by silent minority 09.22.07 @

Power compacter brain distractor droppin a bomb right in your anal conector/sector, vector/the lyric inspector/x-ray vision, power perfector/lector, mector/igor!!

Nuff said!!

^^^dude, that’s just a bunch of shit that rhymes together. By that measure, ANYBODY can be a great lyricist.

Comment by DANJAMANIA 09.22.07 @

So as far as your concerned DANJAMANIA, that quote has no meaning whatsoever??

Comment by Kevin 09.23.07 @

I wouldn’t say “no meaning whatsoever”, I’d say more like “little to no meaning”, which a little bit more than none whatsoever.

Maybe I’m just impervious to Keith’s “genius”. I don’t think he’s terrible, I just don’t get what’s great. If he’s great, then any rapper who strings together random words that rhyme together is great.

Comment by DANJAMANIA 09.23.07 @

Well, to me at least, part of Kool Keith’s genius was his originality. Although nowadays most East Coast mcs are G Rap clones in the past most true mcs strived to be original or unique.

No matter what you say about Keith he always had his own style, in fact he had many styles. When it comes to the point of word assembly or cadences he had hundreds and he always was looking for ways to break the rules.

I think what he did was way more than just stringing words together. Some of his rhymes were stream-of-conciousness bugged out rhyming but I still feel that had he wanted to he could have easily rhymed on a more literal level and blown other rappers of the time away.

Comment by silent minority 09.23.07 @

One other thing, remember on Poppa Large he said,

“I never rhyme like them.”

Comment by silent minority 09.23.07 @

I need to start downloading this shit before the links die…

Comment by Tray 09.26.07 @

Links are dead already.

Robbie, could you reshare the Raw alternate version at least, please? I thought I had it somewhere but I can’t find it now.

Comment by silent minority 09.26.07 @



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